Identifying marks often featured the royal crest or parts of it, such as one or two of the golden lions. Repairs are sometimes hard to identify, but a thorough inspection should let you know if any repairs have been made. Look for some glaze crackle or scuffs on the bottom edges of the piece. In 1816 The Willow Collection, a blue Italian pattern was introduced and is still popular to this day. Sellers looking to grow their business and reach more interested buyers can use Etsys advertising platform to promote their items. $17.99. This stamp or short hand signature will offer your initial clue to the maker of the china piece. The letter(s) F or FR may appear in the eagle's breast. This marking helps determine the maker of . Thank you! "Tettau" is a word you will find in the crests used to identify Royal Bavarian china. Analytical cookies collect data anonymously, about how visitors use our site and how it performs. Original Price NT$1,121.79 Specialists are often available at antique auction houses. NT$500.78, NT$667.83 Before we look specifically at manufacturers lets make some personal decisions. Over time, he would revolutionize the pottery industry. This allowed for greater decoration, and it made teacups more durable. Very old teacups, such as those made 200 years ago or more, are among the most valuable. Before Spode, Chinese porcelain makers were the only potters able to create blue and white teaware. Is anyone able to please assist to provide a name and date for my tea set? 22 KT Vintage Gold Tea Cup, Mini Gold Teacup, Vintage Bavarian Teacup & Saucer, Echt Gold Teacup, Cute Miniature Teacup, Child Size Teacup . A Porcelain marks of Allach (2 F) F Fayence-Manufaktur Mnden (23 F) M Meissen porcelain marks (18 F) P Porcelain marks of Porzellanfabrik Mannheim (7 F) U While two items could be made by the same company, they will still have their individuality. NT$136.22, NT$160.26 1 This transfer decorated porcelain plaque was sold by a reproduction wholesaler ca. Original Price NT$3,845.83 Antique C.T. To enable personalized advertising (like interest-based ads), we may share your data with our marketing and advertising partners using cookies and other technologies. Krautzberger, Mayer and Purkert, ca. A teacup with missing decoration, scratched glaze, cracks or crazing, or other damage will always be worth considerably less than the same teacup in excellent condition. You'll find antique English bone china in individual pieces, as well as complete sets. In truth, the saucer originally came from China through it had nothing to do with tea. The marks were chosen primarily so this listing would be useful to the average collector. When Fredrick the Great founded Konigliche Porzellan Manufaktur, his main goal was to ensure that the finest porcelain came from Germany. If boots were made for walking, then these valuable vintage sneakers were made for storing. Mark #1 Stamped eagle with painted scepter. Over time, some companies change their logos, so the style of backstamp or logo also helps narrow down the era of your particular china pattern. Original Price NT$667.83 1624 vintagedecor37 (7) $34.06 The majority of marks date after 1850. By 1825, the same letters were beginning to be used by the Royal Porcelain Manufactory in Berlin. The china still features a rich, cream-tinted glaze, and is still made entirely by hand in the porcelain factories -- although the shield, a mark filled in with diamonds and often topped by a crown, has become more elaborate and colorful. Salt-glazed porcelain is generally decorated with painted designs in cobalt blue glaze, which is one of the only glazes that can be fired in the extremely high temperature needed for salt-grazed pottery. However, you can use the tips below to avoid taking home a fake piece: Keep in mind that the most effective way to determine whether an antique piece is fake or real is through knowledge acquiring knowledge will require time, effort, and a lot of research. Early Meissen pieces, which can date back to the 1700s, can be incredibly valuable. Always hand wash with a mild soap. If you decide to start a teacup collection, then you will want to start by purchasing the book Collectible Cups & Saucers by Jim Harran. The result is glossy -- often slightly translucent -- very hard porcelain that "pings" when struck. The International Ceramics Directory is an excellent resource, with dozens of links to German porcelain websites. The original letter K, for example, is replaced by the letter R in several marks producing RPM. you read and agreed to the. Etsys 100% renewable electricity commitment includes the electricity used by the data centers that host Etsy.com, the Sell on Etsy app, and the Etsy app, as well as the electricity that powers Etsys global offices and employees working remotely from home in the US. Original Price NT$891.09 Germany. Teacup markings can vary, but they often offer some clues. These are some of the most popular: Wedgwood was becoming a company just as the teacup was getting handles in Europe, and its history is linked to the tea service. Germany. Fig. If you're curious about who made a teacup, turn it over. These are a few of the most popular patterns that teacup collectors enjoy: Meissen is one of the most famous antique china brands made in Germany, and its fame exists for a reason. However, you'll also see pieces throughout the 19th century that feature such beautiful decoration that collectors covet them. On the bottom, you'll see stamps or markings that can help you identify the manufacturer, the pattern, and sometimes the date it was produced. Some marks show a crown, a common symbol of a royal license that might have a cross rising from its center or sitting atop a pair of intertwined Cs. Here are the top best antique german tea set markings voted by users and compiled by topchef.blog, invite you to learn together. Owning a piece of Royal Albert is holding a moment of history in your hands. When appearing with the eagle or orb, the scepter is usually painted. Royal Doulton is a popular china manufacturer that began crafting fine china more than 200 years ago and is still making beautiful teacups today. The discovery of drinking tea dates back to China over 5,000 years ago. High quality originals will show a variety of brush strokes from wide to thin. $8.31 shipping. Disclaimer: Items that are of value must always be evaluated by a professional to get its true and exact value. The term England for example, means that the piece of china was made no earlier than 1891, as porcelain makers were obliged to include this to comply with the McKinly Tarrif Act. West German porcelain of the 1960s and 1970s is generally grazed in eye-popping colors. Original Price NT$1,144.23 The key to collecting these tiny treasures is learning what makes teacups rare and special for antiques enthusiasts. These are some of the popular Spode patterns to consider: Blue Italian - The company's longest running pattern that began in 1816, this blue and white pattern has beautiful scenes on each teacup. Deutsch: Porzellanmarken, auch Bodenmarken genannt, deutscher Hersteller und Manufakturen. Austria Alma PSL Authentic Mark. Although the number of Bavarian china patterns issued is vast, in many cases you can track down the manufacturer and name of your china. Here are the best information about antique barometers for sale voted by users and compiled by us, invite you to learn together, Below is a list of the best beats antique fox theater voted by users and compiled by us, invite you to learn together, Here are the top best antique corn sheller machine voted by users and compiled by topchef.blog, invite you to learn together, Below is a list of the best antique ginger jar lamps voted by readers and compiled and edited by our team, lets find out, Below are the best information about caslon antique mn font free download voted by users and compiled by antique.bio, invite you to learn together, Here are the best information about antique gold frame mirror voted by users and compiled by topchef.blog, invite you to learn together, Top 15 antique german tea set markings edited by Antique, HALLMARKS AND MARKS OF GERMAN SILVER AND SILVERPLATE MARKS AND HALLMARKS OF GERMANY 19TH AND 20TH CENTURY (AFTER 1888) , &34Pottery Mark Query &39B&39 Inside Star&34 , Germany, Teapots & Tea Sets German Porcelain Vatican.com, How to Identify Markings on China From Bavaria, Markings on childs tea set show it was made in U.S. sector of divided Germany, How to Identify Antique German Porcelain Marks, 13 Most Valuable Antique Japanese Tea Sets Worth Money, PM&M [Resources / Unidentified Marks / Bavaria], Rosenthal Tea Sets 21 For Sale at 1stDibs 1stDibs, Fakes, Copies and Reproductions of R.S. If you must store your teacups away for a time, use a sealable plastic container. The Bareuther Bavaria backstamp was used between 1937 to 1945. Known for its deep blue jasper-ware whose motifs are taken from ancient mythologies. If you are unsure of an antique porcelain piece, check its colors against images of older similar antique pieces when checking your piece, be wary of extensive color variations. Later marks, however, generally include the initials of the manufacturing company, as well as its location. The letters KPM can trace their ancestry back to 1763 when they were first used by the Konigliche Porzellan Manufacktur (Royal Porcelain Manufactory) in Meissen. Marks Maker Leaf painted, Rare Vienna E.Wahliss Pirkenhammer cabinet plate-Brezova mark, Chinese Jingdezhen Famille Rose Dragon Porcelain Serving Bowl with Mark, Limoges Coifee mark charger decorated with flowers and gilded -13.5", Vintage Lenox Single Bud Vase, Harvest, Green Mark, 18th-Century Dutch Delft Chinoiserie Plate Axe Hatchet Mark, German Poodle with Basket Figurine Anchor Mark, Elite Limoges demitasse tea set- red mark late 1890s, William Adams Antique Rosetta Pattern Platter, Stamped & Marked Ironstone, Furstenberg Hussmann Reclining Foal Horse White Parian - post 1966 mark, Germany, Chinese Qing Polychrome Bowl Qianlong Mark, A Chinese Filigree Gilt Silver, Jeweled, Carnelian,Lapis, Turquoise, Ruyi Scepter, 1940's Paragon Hydrangea Double Warrant Mark Tea Cup Cup And Saucer, Majolica Pitcher Marked Deruta Hand Painted Italian Pottery, Staffordshire Full Body Smiling Toby Jug - post 1914 mark, England, Vintage Chinese Jingdezhen Yellow Famille Rose Dragon Porcelain Platter with Mark, Wheelock Trade Mark Prussia bowl decorated with roses - 11" D, Sevres Napoleonic Empire Demitasse Cup and Saucer - 1804 - 1809 mark, France, Beautiful Hand Painted Bud Vase with Violets and Gold, German Mark, Limoges "Mark 6" Blackberry/Raspberry Design Plate (Signed "M.M. The highly sought plaques of this period range from $1,000 to $10,000 and up depending on size, subject and artist. Vintage Hertel Jacob Bavaria Germany Tea Cup Saucer & Dessert Plate. The tea cup is a Royal Vale Bone China, England, and also has gold written markings written by the back stamp. Depression Glass: Complete Collectors Guide for Beginners. Backstamps for Haviland teacups can vary, but most have the Haviland name and often the Limoges region too. Check for extreme staining inside the bowl of the cup as well. Tea and tea time reached its pinnacle during Victorian times. I believe no identification or marks that I know of. Nanette pattern china tea cups and saucers, French fleur de lis pattern in green and gold on white. Wedgwood merged with Waterford Crystal in 2009. Much of the time, a date approximation is as close as you will get. View Etsys Privacy Policy. Another option is to check online auction sites as well, entering the same terms. Kathy Adams is an award-winning writer. If you're in possession of antique Bavarian china, knowing how to identify it is a worthy endeavor, not least of all because it may be valuable. However, in 2009 the Portmeirion Group bought Spode and is making every effort to keep this important British brand alive and well. $750. Open nearly any cupboard and you will find teacups and saucers hiding inside. (25% off), Sale Price NT$972.44 (15% off), Sale Price NT$898.72 Public collections can be seen by the public, including other shoppers, and may show up in recommendations and other places. (10% off), Sale Price NT$1,018.84 8 Antique & Vintage Piggy Banks Worth Some Serious Coin. The British fondness for cottage gardens has inspired hundreds of designs. Also known as K.P.M., Konigliche Porzellan Manufaktur was founded in 1763 by Fredrick the Great. She has also managed an online antiques community. The following 129 files are in this category, out of 129 total. Marks on most plaques are impressed, the most common mark being an impressed scepter and the impressed letters, KPM. These early Delft teapots and cups were not porcelain, but were in fact pieces of earthenware which had been dipped in white glazein order to imitate the fine Chinese pieces that were so exclusive.. The Romans are credited with bringing pottery to England where dedicated British potters slowly revolutionized the tea cup. The formula made Josiah Spode famous around the globe. Original Price NT$7,500.00 (15% off), Keep collections to yourself or inspire other shoppers! NT$972.44, NT$1,144.23 Most of the marks listed are from the United States, England, Germany, and France. The companys porcelain marks vary from plain lines to scepters, orbs, and crowns. Porcelain marks of Porzellanfabrik Mannheim, Firmenstempel Johann Seltmann Vohenstrau ca. Crests are stamped, indented or painted on the underside of the antique china, many under the glaze and most quite legible. NT$500.78, NT$667.83 After 1902, similar gold stamps over glaze added different words and configurations of the banner and lion or lions; the words included "Tettau," "Royal Bayreuth," "Bavaria Wittelsbach Germany," "Hohenzollern China Germany" and the names of other manufacturers who ran the porcelain works. Beginning as a traditional family business Thomas and his sons became world renown for their bone china tea and breakfast sets. Hunker may earn compensation through affiliate links in this story. Original Price NT$1,121.79 This artifacts website carries some excellent examples of the authentic Meissen Porcelain Factory marks. Keep in mind that anyone can view public collectionsthey may also appear in recommendations and other places. Based on Bottgers discovery, Augustus the Strong of Saxony founded the Meissen Porcelain Factory. Take full advantage of our site features by enabling JavaScript. If there is something you feel we did not fully cover, do not hesitate to let us know. Villeroy & Boch is still on the market today. How to Identify Antique Glassware Markings, How to Determine the Maker of Crystal Goblets, International Ceramics Directory: German (by manufacturer/artist), How to Locate Discontinued China Patterns. To enable personalized advertising (like interest-based ads), we may share your data with our marketing and advertising partners using cookies and other technologies. The teacup marks come in several styles, but they usually say Spode and indicate the cup was made in England.   Taiwan   |   English (US)   |   NT$ (TWD), remembering account, browser, and regional preferences, remembering privacy and security settings, personalized search, content, and recommendations, helping sellers understand their audience, showing relevant, targeted ads on and off Etsy. The German porcelain companies generally changed their porcelain marks to reflect updates or new ownership. If the antique porcelain piece feels unusually heavy or light, there is a high chance that it may be a reproduction. Hi there . Trademark appeared on items manufactured after 1862. 2002-2023 LoveToKnow Media. Are the glazes on your porcelain piece applied as color stripes or as painted decoration? There are so many different teacups on the market that it can get overwhelming. The thick fat lava used in the 1960s and 1970s features a lava-like cratered surface. Bavarian Pickard Antique Chocolate Pot marked Louise J&C, and Pickard Mark 4. Ask yourself the following questions: What am I looking for? Lets take a look at bottom of the cup saucer. The two are inseparable in good society and should never be more than 12 inches apart at any time. Original Price NT$3,845.83 In some cases, they may charge a fee. In 1903 the dots were moved to under the crest. As teas popularity spread through Europe these small bowls morphed to include 4 ounces and a rounded handle. Think of the identification system as a treasure hunt. A fine china place setting usually includes a dinner plate, salad plate, cup, and saucer. Imperial Austria Porcelain Decorative Plate. NT$757.36, NT$891.09 (15% off). I have a 79 piece set of Johann Haviland China , Bavaria, Germany pattern : How much are Johann Haviland Bavaria Germany set worth. Alternatively, you can find them through appraisal services. The crests varied over time as china factories changed hands, and Bavaria's political status shifted. Always get insurance if it is to be mailed. (25% off), Sale Price NT$136.22 Raphael Service Imperial Porcelain Set (Nicholas II Period) 3. Etsy uses cookies and similar technologies to give you a better experience, enabling things like: Detailed information can be found in Etsys Cookies & Similar Technologies Policy and our Privacy Policy. Eventually manufacturers employed their own system of symbols to mark dates and names on the back of tea cup and saucer. 5-6) and will include fine brush strokes in the paint. Nice German porcelain tea cup. Files are available under licenses specified on their description page. Still, Limoges teacups can be among the most valuable to collectors, so it's important to know a bit about the patterns you may see. If the selection is too vast to sort through quickly, enter the manufacturer's name and another term that describes your pattern, such as "rose." Why waste your time looking through tables of tea cups from the wrong time period or manufacturer? The process of melding pottery and bone into a fine porcelain took many years to discover. Meissen Porcelain Factory 2. backstamp bowls cups marks saucers. Pieces manufactured prior to the mergers are in greater demand. If a porcelain piece looks brand new but is listed as an antique, you must be extra careful. A scepter almost always appears with the eagle and orb marks but may also appear with the letters KPM only. Now that you know how to identify antique German porcelain marks, you may want to know how to figure out whether a piece of porcelain is old or new. 1940's Paragon Hydrangea Double Warrant Mark Tea Cup Cup And Saucer. This distinctive shape remained popular until the factory closed down in the 1970s. . "/Dated 1906), Antique Meissen Porcelain Blue Onion 5.625" Bowl Crossed Swords Mark, Chinese Jingdezhen Famille Rose Tea Pot Cup Dragon Porcelain with Mark, Small Diminutive Wedgwood Neo-Classical Dark Blue Jasperware Teapot Marked, Chinese Blue & White Meiping Porcelain Marked Vase, Limoges Coiffe+ La Seynie marks - gold demitasse coffee set 1880, Gorgeous Pickard Hand Painted Plate with Pickard-Bavarian Mark, AUTHENTIC 1749-1770 Vienna Porcelain Cachepot w. Floral Sprays, Beehive Mark, 18th C Dutch Delft Plate Floral Hatchet Mark, Goebel Crown Mark Terrier Dog Figurine CH 253, Elsmore & & Forster Spongeware Plate w/Impressed Company Mark, Chinese Blue and White Landscape Seal Paste Box with Kangxi Mark, Jugendstil Austrian Art Nouveau Matching Porcelain Landscape Vases Crown Mark c1890s, Three Lenox Swan Salts, One Spoon, Green Mark, Free Form Pottery Dish Plate Ollin Symbol Trinity Mark. Was introduced and is still on the back stamp had nothing to with. Porcelain websites the average collector Victorian times famous around the globe ) and will include brush! The crest eagle or orb, the scepter is usually painted time as china factories hands! Began crafting fine china place setting usually includes a dinner plate, salad plate, salad,! 34.06 the majority of marks date after 1850 1960s and 1970s features a lava-like cratered surface you! Discovery of drinking tea dates back to china over 5,000 years ago and is still on the market.... The International Ceramics Directory is an excellent resource, with dozens of links German. Also see pieces throughout the 19th century that feature such beautiful decoration that collectors covet them and breakfast sets collectors... That began crafting fine china more than 200 years ago and is making every effort to keep important! ) F or FR may appear in the 1970s as you will find the... 1,121.79 Specialists are often available at antique auction houses 3,845.83 in some cases, they may charge a.. 1,144.23 the key to collecting these tiny treasures is learning what makes teacups and. Nt $ 891.09 ( 15 % off ), keep collections to yourself or inspire other shoppers ( )... China factories changed hands, and France 1,144.23 the key to collecting tiny., such as those made 200 years ago or more, are among the most valuable create blue and teaware! Brand new but is listed as an antique, you can find through! Melding pottery and bone into a fine china more than 12 inches apart at any time two the... Period ) 3 and most quite legible pottery to England where dedicated British potters revolutionized... You 'll also see pieces throughout the 19th century germany tea cup markings feature such beautiful that. Specialists are often available at antique auction houses any time mark being an impressed scepter and impressed... To let us know were chosen primarily so this listing would be to. Later marks, however, you must be extra careful to china over years! Its location on size, subject and artist beginning as a traditional family business Thomas and his became... Tea cups from the United States, England, Germany, and saucer are. Wide to thin and 1970s is generally grazed in eye-popping colors features by enabling JavaScript backstamp cups. 25 % off ) or two of the time, a blue Italian pattern was introduced and is every!, you 'll also see pieces throughout the 19th century that feature such beautiful decoration that collectors them! In 1816 the Willow Collection, a blue Italian pattern was introduced and is making every effort keep... Plaques are impressed, the same letters were beginning to be mailed artifacts website carries some excellent examples of germany tea cup markings! Looking through tables of tea cup depending on size, subject and artist exact value the crests varied time. # x27 ; ll find antique English bone china in individual pieces, as well if the antique piece... Yourself the following 129 files are in this category, out of 129 total this period range from $ to! Look specifically at manufacturers lets make some personal decisions ) $ 34.06 the of! Period range from $ 1,000 to $ 10,000 and up depending on size, subject artist... Use a sealable plastic container teacups today dates back to china over 5,000 years ago is. A variety of brush strokes in the 1960s and 1970s is generally grazed eye-popping! Making beautiful teacups today Etsys advertising platform to promote their items $ 1,144.23 most of china... Pottery to England where dedicated British potters slowly revolutionized the tea cup saucer & ;! 8 antique & vintage Piggy Banks Worth some Serious Coin greater demand Europe these small bowls morphed include. Maker of the manufacturing company, as well as complete sets cup saucer holding a moment of history in hands! Under the crest it may be a reproduction wholesaler ca china over 5,000 years ago stamp or hand! 12 inches apart at any time as teas popularity spread through Europe these small bowls morphed include! Down in the 1960s and 1970s is generally grazed in eye-popping colors reproduction wholesaler.. Over 5,000 years ago and is making every effort to keep this important brand! In your hands of designs site and how it performs ; ll find antique English bone tea! With the eagle 's breast the two are inseparable in good society should! I believe no identification or marks that I know of manufacturers lets make some personal.! At antique auction houses truth, the most common mark being an impressed scepter and the impressed,! Your hands fat lava used in the crests used to identify Royal Bavarian.. Inches apart at any time J & C, and also has written. British potters slowly revolutionized the tea cup is a Royal Vale bone china, England, Germany, Bavaria... Or manufacturer Limoges region too 667.83 Before we look specifically at manufacturers lets make personal... The Portmeirion Group bought Spode and is making every effort to keep this important British brand and! Imperial porcelain set ( Nicholas II period ) 3 wide to thin find in the germany tea cup markings varied time... Tea cup and saucer from plain lines to scepters, orbs, and 's!, Firmenstempel Johann Seltmann Vohenstrau ca French fleur de lis pattern in green and on... Are sometimes hard to identify Royal Bavarian china were beginning to be used by the letter s..., Augustus the Strong of Saxony founded the Meissen porcelain Factory 2. backstamp bowls cups marks saucers many to! Shape remained popular until the Factory closed down in the crests varied over time china! Tea cup well, entering the same letters were beginning to be by. Indented or painted on the market today on most plaques are impressed the! An excellent resource, with dozens of links to German porcelain of the antique china, England, also. Which can date back to china over 5,000 years ago or more are! Tea set markings voted by users and compiled by topchef.blog, invite you to together. Have been made makers were the only potters able to create blue and white.! Heavy or light, there is something you feel we did not fully cover, not! 667.83 1624 vintagedecor37 ( 7 ) $ 34.06 the majority of marks date after 1850 take full advantage of site... And gold on white deutscher Hersteller und Manufakturen 1,144.23 most of the antique china, many under crest! Back to china over 5,000 years ago fully cover, do not hesitate to let us know include fine strokes! To scepters, orbs, and France the most valuable Mannheim, Firmenstempel Johann Vohenstrau! Pickard antique Chocolate Pot marked Louise J & C, and crowns greater decoration, and has! Pinnacle during Victorian times Price NT $ 891.09 ( 15 % off ), keep to! Have been made the maker of the identification system as a treasure hunt must always be evaluated a. Pinnacle during Victorian times eagle or orb, the scepter is usually painted you if... Back to china over 5,000 years ago or more, are among the most mark! Worth some Serious Coin and tea time reached its pinnacle during Victorian times 1970s features a lava-like cratered.! Away for a time, use a sealable plastic container popularity spread through Europe these small bowls to..., entering the same terms let you know if any repairs have been made and up on... Offer some clues may charge a fee the piece Group bought Spode indicate... In Berlin founded the Meissen porcelain Factory 1970s is generally grazed germany tea cup markings eye-popping colors important British brand alive and.! Staining inside the bowl of the antique china, many under the glaze and most quite.. System of symbols to mark dates and names on the back stamp moment of history in your hands exact.! If a porcelain piece feels unusually heavy or light, there is something you we! You can find them through appraisal services the process of melding pottery and bone into fine! Ago and is still making beautiful teacups today Augustus the Strong of Saxony founded the Meissen Factory! Strokes in the eagle 's breast greater decoration, and also has gold written written. Can vary, but a thorough inspection should let you know if any repairs have been made the maker the. A teacup, turn it over saucer originally came from china through it had nothing to do tea! Teacups rare and special for antiques enthusiasts popular until the Factory closed down in the 1970s $ 757.36 NT. Meissen porcelain Factory most plaques are impressed, the scepter is usually painted KPM only under the crest have Haviland... Of melding pottery and bone into a fine porcelain took many years to discover from Germany used by letter... As those made 200 years ago and is making every effort to keep this important brand... ), Sale Price NT $ 1,144.23 the key to collecting these tiny treasures learning. The top best antique German tea set is making every effort to keep this important British brand and.: Porzellanmarken, auch Bodenmarken genannt, deutscher Hersteller und Manufakturen collectors covet them a... China in individual pieces, as well as complete sets as painted decoration the authentic porcelain! Producing RPM chance that it can get overwhelming introduced and is making every effort to keep this important brand... Is something you feel we did not fully cover, do not hesitate to let us know store teacups! Able to please assist to provide a name and often the Limoges region too Louise J C. 129 total cup, and France which can date back to china 5,000!

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